Curse

Navaros · Dec 22, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

I say it's bad because it is indeed a way for any joe to steal advanced tactics made up by smart players. Now instead of only smart players doing things in an ideal way, everyone is going to be doing so because they saw it in observer mode.

Observer mode should be consent-based.

Orbberius · Dec 22, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

I say it's bad because it is indeed a way for any joe to steal advanced tactics made up by smart players. Now instead of only smart players doing things in an ideal way, everyone is going to be doing so because they saw it in observer mode.

Observer mode should be consent-based.

Awww poor smarty-pants player is sooo scawed of the scawy newbies.

linh · Dec 22, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Build isn't the most important thing to make a good guild. The main reason is they are good players and they do team work very well.
And people who copy build are not good players, so they cant make good team or good guild.

fgarvin · Dec 22, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Armchair quarterbacking...FTW

Those who can, do, those who can't, watch and bitch about it on Monday.

twicky_kid · Dec 22, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ventius Hozza

Even still, would you want to publicise something that you made up for your own guild's purposes? Builds are key, regardless of if you know how to play them.

That statement is completely wrong.

If being able to play the build has nothing to do with it then you should tell some of the top guilds that ran 8 paladin premades (as a joke) and held hall for half an hour.

The build is obviously junk but they knew how to play it. Playing the build is everything. Most skills are balanced enough that in game tactics are key. Since I can't hear their conversation on vent or ts I don't think this is a big deal.

killer toast · Dec 22, 2005, 07:36 PM // 19:36

wait can you observe people playing now? and if so how?

theclam · Dec 22, 2005, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer toast

wait can you observe people playing now? and if so how?

Press Menu. There's an Observe button.

Epinephrine · Dec 22, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

I suspect the loudest complainers about this will be the mediocre players. The good ones don't mind, as they know it's about skill, the weak players will learn, but the arrogant egomaniacs that think they are special will be afraid.

Rico Carridan · Dec 22, 2005, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

Yes, observor mode rocks.

No, the people I get to observe was boring as hell. (playing everything by the book... if you know what I mean)

Now I want GvG observer >< Alot of people is probably going to say something about this thou.

You can observe GvG, I did it last night. You just need to wait till there's a match that includes a high ranked team.

Rico

LiQuId StEeL · Dec 22, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

If only there was a way to watch your own guild. (Please, someone correct me!)

Ensign · Dec 22, 2005, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Build is the most overrated part of a match. Ultimately this game comes down to strategy and execution of said strategy. The build is merely the set of tools that you've determined that you *need* to execute that strategy effectively.

That's basically why I'm not worried about people 'stealing' builds. What I'm not happy about is the potential for abuse through this - I.E., teams seeing what the other teams are running on a given night and bringing a metagamed hate build against that. It takes a couple runs to really get into a groove with a build and play it effectively. So switching builds after every match is unrealistic, but observer mode might make not doing it a liability.

I don't suspect this is going to be a problem, realistically, as other guilds are going to be in the same boat and not want to switch builds on a whim. Hell, I could tell you what all the top american guilds have been running with a high degree of accuracy, and I haven't seen them changing outside a couple of tweaks.

What I do hope to see from this is a better understanding of the metagame, faster evolutions, and less build stagnation. We'll see how much of an effect this ends up having.

Peace,
-CxE

icemonkey · Dec 22, 2005, 11:00 PM // 23:00

I agree with Ensign(i think thats the second time this week to, well said)

And anyways most top guilds have more than one effective halls build, they usually play what they find fun at the time.

And hopefully all this will stop the noobs that go to forums and say get rid of fame ist too hard to get blah blah blah. Finally they can see what a real tombs team is composed of and what it takes to play in tombs. They will see it is a lot more complex than they think. They will also understand how important communication is when they steal a build and try it and get pwned anyways.

Like the football analogy, build is only part of it.

Also don't you think they should have a rating system or something so that the best matches of the week get a special section and can be watched at any time, not just right afterwards.

Also since my guild is in top 100 i am looking forward to watching to see what went wrong after we lose. Learning opporunity FTW!!

Ensign · Dec 22, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Actually there are a couple things I hope people learn from observer mode in tombs:

1) How ridiculous the Courtyard map is, that's consistently an eight minute staring contest.
2) Just how often the winner in HoH comes down to which team *doesn't* get double teamed.
3) How little the 'top' guilds care about tombs. iWay and Minion Factory FTW.

Peace,
-CxE

TMWNN · Dec 22, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

I think its an awesome addition, im part of a competitive tombs guild and If anyone is scared of people copying thier build they seriously need to get a clue.

Observer mode will give unranked new players a way to learn the maps, learn decent tactics and learn how to counter builds like IWAY.

Hopefully it will also get more people playing pvp and raise the general skill level of players, I think GW pvp is going to enter a golden age with with this fantastic addition. Anet take a bow, i'm extremely impressed.

sun is in us · Dec 22, 2005, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Also don't you think they should have a rating system or something so that the best matches of the week get a special section and can be watched at any time, not just right afterwards.

I don't see why some enterprising community member won't eventually have a game film collection that they sport on a website actually....

Chev of Hardass · Dec 22, 2005, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

If being able to play the build has nothing to do with it then you should tell some of the top guilds that ran 8 paladin premades (as a joke) and held hall for half an hour.

I gotta step in here..... anyone can hold Halls at the right time of day. Bla bla bla. Your argument does not stand up. If 8 Paladins tried to tak the hall from one of the better Tombs Guilds, they would get laughed at and slaughtered.

Builds do not matter to an extreme degree, but this wil open up the best guilds builds to the casual observer. If a guild sits in vent and each person watches one person, there is no way they cannot get every single skill that the team uses. That was simply not possible before, and reproducing builds that beat you has never been easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It takes a couple runs to really get into a groove with a build and play it effectively.

While it may take more than a couple of runs to get in the groove with a build for a lesser team, there is now nothing stopping a bunch of scrubs from copying a build to the "T" and practicing it till they can run it profeciently.

This will change the face of the game, I just wish they would fix the bugs before they added things like this........

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34103

Lets Get to Healing · Dec 22, 2005, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

lol we just got our asses owned in tombs, and got called noobs. These observers are nasty, but its all good fun and builds arent meant to be kept secret anyway.

How can some one call u noob when they r not even in tombs. They probobly cant evem get in a tombs build. I congratulate in guild who allows others to witness there battle. And is true to have 100 people in one chat room with half the people saying HAHAH Wat a bunch of noobs my guild would sooooooooo own em. Still spec mode is great. Thumbs up Anet keep us on the edge of our seats!

Navaros · Dec 22, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Actually there are a couple things I hope people learn from observer mode in tombs:

1) How ridiculous the Courtyard map is, that's consistently an eight minute staring contest.
2) Just how often the winner in HoH comes down to which team *doesn't* get double teamed.
3) How little the 'top' guilds care about tombs. iWay and Minion Factory FTW.

Peace,
-CxE

1. In regards to point 1, that's because almost no one has the fortitude to arrange gank deals. People need to be more open to making gank deals. That would make Courtyard not take so long and the result would be much less random.

2. /agreed. "The ultimate battle" (what the HoH claims to be) should not be determined by 16 players vs. 8 players. That's happenstance that determines the winner most of the time, not skill.

3. If the "top Guilds" can't beat IWAY or MF, then they are not really top Guilds. Not even close.

Four Pool Rush · Dec 22, 2005, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chev of Hardass

While it may take more than a couple of runs to get in the groove with a build for a lesser team, there is now nothing stopping a bunch of scrubs from copying a build to the "T" and practicing it till they can run it profeciently.

So if a bunch of scrubs copy a build so well that they learn the in's and out's of it, to the point of beating top tier teams with it then what is the problem? That shows observer mode is going to make people want to practice and to think. If scrubs are really interested in not being scrubs anymore then how can you complain about that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

3. If the "top Guilds" can't beat IWAY or MF, then they are not really top Guilds. Not even close.

Top guilds can lose to IWAY if they are experimenting with stuff in Tombs that really is weak vs high DPS. IWAY is not a n00b build, it's just that plenty of noobs run it.

Sir Skullcrasher · Dec 23, 2005, 12:19 AM // 00:19

I got a question, by allowing other people to see your builds, wouldn't we see more team with the same type of builds going against each other in PvP? This mode is interesting althought the drawback is how many guilds will be copying other's builds in hope of being able to defeat a team in PvP arena or HoH.

The other part i like is to learn what strategies is needed to counter these builds. By allowing players to look at different matches, you can figure out what your team should prepare for and what skills they needed.